Read the transcript
Max Forsyth (00:01.208)
So Ed Whitehead, welcome to Strategy, Story, and Stakeholders.
Ed Whitehead (00:05.735)
Thanks Max, lovely to be here.
Max Forsyth (00:07.734)
It's an absolute pleasure. And yeah, thank you for joining us. Let's dive straight in, shall we? So yeah, so this is report describes a shift from crisis as an event to crisis as a constant. What's changed most in how senior communicators describe their world compared to even two or three years ago?
Ed Whitehead (00:27.409)
Yeah, thanks Max. It's really it's a coming together of lots of different factors all at the same time. So geopolitical, social, commercial, all happening coincidentally and coinciding and coming together with significant force. I think that's of driven really by four key societal trends. So at Ipsos we run a global trends report.
every year. So some of the key sort of global trends that driving that. The first is that uncertainty is the new normal. Political and economic volatility have been constant really. So global consumer confidence is really uneven. This uncertainty, you know, we see that in the interviews with Reputation Council members, know, one of them talked about waking up in the morning, reading the latest news and thinking, you know, what fresh hell is this? Which is a great quote for the report, but really sort of
And this is somebody, and people who've been doing it for 20, 30 years, talking about never having experienced levels of unpredictability and volatility quite like they had in the last 12 months. And the sort of second, the second global trend is just this pervasive distrust. So there's just such widespread skepticism globally of political leaders, institutions and businesses. And in the UK, we just released our veracity index.
Max Forsyth (01:31.758)
Mm.
Ed Whitehead (01:50.76)
recently and for example trust in politicians has never been lower since we started tracking in 1983. Trust in the clergy and priests is down 30 points since 1983. Trust in police at its lowest ever level. those core institutions are just not highly trusted at all. Trust in business leaders down five points in the last year. And net trust there is minus 28%. So there's just widespread distrust in
Max Forsyth (01:57.966)
Okay, interesting.
Max Forsyth (02:03.01)
Well.
Max Forsyth (02:13.1)
Interesting.
Ed Whitehead (02:19.161)
all of what were the pillars of society essentially in years gone by just deteriorated significantly. There's fracturing globalization, which big multinational companies are having to deal with. There's a big backlash against globalization in the developed world, but developing nations perceive it as more a positive. So those divides are making global and local challenges really prominent for communicators, more pertinent than ever. And the
Max Forsyth (02:26.157)
Mmm.
Ed Whitehead (02:47.843)
ongoing and pretty consistent inequality and wealth conflict. So a high level of agreement from people around the world that income disparity is bad for society, but at the same time, more conflict than ever between people who don't share the same values. So those are sort of some of the big macro challenges that are shaping the world that communicators are working in. Those conflicts present real challenges where we talk about persistent turbulence in the report and
we use the analogy of it's like the seatbelt sign on an aeroplane and used to, you know, the lights on occasionally, you know, you're crossing over the West coast of Ireland on your way to America, you might get a bit of a jolt, but you know, it's off pretty quickly. But these days, communicators talk about operating in this landscape of just ongoing turbulence. And my background before I joined Ipsos was in corporate comms, I spent a lot of time on some reactive
Max Forsyth (03:30.593)
Yes.
Ed Whitehead (03:46.184)
Press Offices, Crisis and Issues Management. But really those crises came about once in a while. So I worked with a quick service restaurant and it was protest by Greenpeace or running out of key ingredients or that sort of thing or occasionally industry wide issues like the horse meat scandal. these days geopolitical society or tech shocks, they're all colliding.
Max Forsyth (03:54.295)
Yes.
Max Forsyth (04:03.799)
Yes.
Ed Whitehead (04:14.203)
an organization is being dragged into crises, they're not necessarily of their own making, but they're really substantial and it's a new world and a new experience for lot of communicators that's really shaking what their role has traditionally entailed.
Max Forsyth (04:31.531)
Yes, yeah, you mentioned the persistent turbulence there rather than, as you say, know, one off crises. So why does that distinction matter for how organisations should respond?
Ed Whitehead (04:46.045)
Yeah, it's really interesting talking to reputation council members because the traditional methods, years and years ago, they developed crisis manuals, statement manuals, they did their crisis training. So there's a very high degree of confidence that they've got their bases covered on the traditional challenges. But this new persistent turbulence requires more of an ongoing
preparation and that's where a lot of the work we do with our clients comes in. So we help clients with reputation research to help them monitor the landscape and understand future proof their organization, shape strategy going forward, understand sort of changing sentiments amongst stakeholders before they might hit in big time.
So I think it's a requirement for communicators to be better prepared and that expectation that you know expect the unexpected essentially and help their organizations not be shocked by the next surprise that comes around the corner.
Max Forsyth (06:01.953)
Yeah, and a really good advice. Thank you. And leading on from that, so one of the strongest findings in the report is that geopolitics is now the number one concern for CCOs. Why is this landed so firmly in the communications remit?
Ed Whitehead (06:18.629)
Yeah, it's a great question. We actually started all the interviews with Reputation Council members asking what's your biggest challenge at the moment? my favorite answer was one of them said, well, if it's my top three, it's geopolitics, geopolitics, geopolitics. So it really is shaping everything. And I think that's partly fallen in the communicators lap because what you say or do in one market really does echo globally. I think you can see that in the way that some firms closeness to the Trump administration
may be reaping rewards in the US, but might be impacting more negatively how they're perceived in Europe, for instance. And I think that CCOs are being asked to help interpret things like tariffs, sanctions, global conflicts, to help their boards ensure that messaging lands locally without triggering backlash elsewhere. Council members talk about resources shifting
Max Forsyth (06:56.29)
Yes.
Max Forsyth (07:14.273)
Yes.
Ed Whitehead (07:18.001)
within their teams to regularity or government affairs. They talk about being responsible for things like de-woking website copy. changing the language to remove potentially triggering DEI wording, for instance, on websites or just making sure that things are complying more with what the current American administration might view favorably on.
Max Forsyth (07:29.357)
Okay.
Max Forsyth (07:45.484)
Yes.
Ed Whitehead (07:46.011)
those responsibilities certainly do seem to be falling into the lap of the communicators.
Max Forsyth (07:51.714)
Yes, and in the report, yeah, I noticed a quote around, know, CCOs almost think themselves having to be a geopolitical analyst. So what does being a geopolitical analyst actually look like day to day for a CCO in a global organization?
Ed Whitehead (08:08.145)
Yeah, so think part of it does come back to the research and being able to see around corners from being able to anticipate what's next. So running horizon scanning, being able to scenario plan across markets, being able to stress test different statements, translating policy into comms guidance, and also having that. And I think communications as a function has always
reached across organisations really well. It's had to have a good link into departments like Legal Policy Risk HR. I think more so than ever that cross-functional organiser is a growing strength to the bow of communicators.
Max Forsyth (09:00.653)
then where do you see comms leaders being able to therefore add the most value to boards when it comes to geopolitical risk?
Ed Whitehead (09:08.753)
Yeah, I think it's, and we quote in the report from a well-known independent comms consultant, Rod Cartwright, who talks in his most recent report about sense making and sense giving. it's of being able to separate signal from the noise in terms of things like tariffs, being able to anticipate, know, this is just bluster versus this is actually what's likely to be implemented.
really big one in terms of advising when to speak or stay silent and helping as I mentioned talking about sort of localizing strategy. We see in our research that Chief Communications Officers have really strong access to leadership. 91 % talk about having direct and sufficient access to the CEO, 95 % talk about having similar access across leadership. So they have that access increasingly I think as a result of the growing
Max Forsyth (09:46.605)
Yes.
Ed Whitehead (10:07.271)
complexity of the world and the value that communications leaders can add and I think it really is that sense giving is vitally important.
Max Forsyth (10:17.889)
Yeah, and just talking around that, some of that sort of silence piece as well leads me quite nicely onto the next section. in the report, only one in five CCOs now prefer to speak out on divisive issues. What's driving this move towards strategic silence?
Ed Whitehead (10:37.071)
Yeah, it's a real deliberate risk-assessed decision, I think. And it's largely staying silent on issues that aren't core to the business. And the interviews with council members talked about a really significant shift, even in the last two or three years. And if you look back four or five years, you had companies falling over themselves to comment on Black Lives Matter or Russia, Ukraine. These days,
Max Forsyth (11:04.205)
Mmm.
Ed Whitehead (11:05.777)
because it's such a polarized environment out there, communicators are telling us, you know, I just don't see any advantage to your reputation by taking a strong stance. Every company is trying to keep their brand out of the news. There's no competitive advantage to be gained by taking a stance on an issue these days, unless it really is absolutely core to what the business is all about.
Max Forsyth (11:17.677)
Yes.
Max Forsyth (11:33.591)
Yeah, sure. And how are those leaders then deciding when that silence is more of a strategic choice rather than them just avoiding it?
Ed Whitehead (11:44.028)
Yeah, I think it comes back to authenticity above all. It's understanding what your business is about in terms of your values, your North Star. What is central to your operations? What is pertinent? What do you have credibility to talk about? What's material to the business? And when you can prove delivery, great, say something, but...
Otherwise, what we're seeing communicators talk about is prioritizing internal alignment. So they might not be talking out publicly about some of these hot topic issues that historically they would have done, but what they are doing continually is and consistently is engaging internally with different work communities, making sure that they feel heard, making sure that their companies
Max Forsyth (12:24.941)
Hmm.
Ed Whitehead (12:38.279)
position is still understood on these things, the company cares about an issue without necessarily shouting it from the rooftops as they would have previously done to try and get some perceived reputational advantage.
Max Forsyth (12:53.931)
Yeah, no, that's interesting. Just on the flip side of that, though, have you identified in the report, are there any particular risks to organisations if they have and do retreat too far from that public engagement?
Ed Whitehead (13:10.415)
Yeah, I think that the risks are seen as things like, you know, green hushing, for instance, if there are companies that are making significant strides on sustainability, but they're just not talking about it because it's seen as being too politicised or too much of a risk, then there's the potential risk there that their progress and potential best practice sharing isn't happening in the way it could. I think what we are
hearing from comms leaders is they're still trying to engage relevant stakeholders in a really targeted way. often the people that they feel do still need to hear about progress that's being made in areas like sustainability or other parts of ESG are still being engaged with, but it's a lot more targeted. It's much more narrow cast rather than broadcast.
Max Forsyth (14:06.773)
Yeah, interesting. And just building on that sustainability piece and telling an eye to ESG. So the report suggests the era of loud ESG messaging is over, but the ESG is still reshaping how business operates. So how do you reconcile those two things?
Ed Whitehead (14:24.635)
Yeah, I think we came across this earlier in the year with our ESG Council report. So that's a group of chief sustainability officers and we titled that report Reset All Retreat because we were looking at is ESG dead or is it actually a recalibration, pragmatism over pronouncements and that sort of really echoed in what came out from our interviews with
comms leaders as well. Public rhetoric on ESG is definitely down. So 80 % of reputation council members told us that they expect their company to be more tentative on ESG communications. Three quarters say that leaders are diluting public commitments. But at the same time, those principles are still being really embedded within the organization. So
more than half, 52 % still feel that ESG is fundamentally changing how business operates. And really importantly, almost two thirds say it influences business strategy and four and five, so 81 % say that ESG is still a really important factor in attracting and retaining talent. while again, coming, it's linked to the strategic silence point, while it may not be seen as a
reputational benefit to be talking about what you're doing in ESG, the focus from communicators is on making sure that these things are really firmly embedded within the business.
Max Forsyth (16:00.014)
Has and why has the term ESG itself become such a problem?
Ed Whitehead (16:08.209)
Yeah, I think there's two points. One is that it's just become really politicised, as have terms like DEI or other phrases which are just viewed as by one part of the political spectrum are just seen as being too woke and emblematic of everything that's wrong with society and business. I think the other point from people who are actually working in the discipline is that it's not
particularly precise. Only one third of Reputation Council members think that ESG describes well what the discipline is. That's down to 11 % in the US. what we're seeing is people are trying to shift to more specific material issues. depending on the organisation, but talking specifically about climate risk or workforce equity or resilience increasingly where we're hearing there was some
Max Forsyth (16:47.981)
interesting.
Ed Whitehead (17:06.587)
research carried out by a US firm called Maslansky and Partners last year, which talked about responsible business being something that resonated equally with people on the left and on the right of the political spectrum. So that was viewed as something that people could get behind because it resonated with their own perceptions of what responsibility was rather than necessarily a business sort of trying to or be perceived as ramming
Max Forsyth (17:22.221)
Hmm.
Ed Whitehead (17:36.347)
a certain agenda down their throat.
Max Forsyth (17:39.882)
Yeah, that's quite interesting actually. almost a little bit of a nod back to, know, really to prior to ESG, know, was CSR was the big, you know, kind of acronym, wasn't it? The businesses started adopting. So yeah, that's really interesting point actually. And yeah, it'd be interesting to see what future phrases start to spring up next year as well as companies start to find more inventive ways of, you know, kind of describing some of these issues and
Ed Whitehead (18:08.871)
Yeah.
Max Forsyth (18:09.345)
what they're doing about it. So with that in mind, what is good?
of resident to actually use that now, but what does good ESG communication look like now if it's less about campaigns and more about credibility?
Ed Whitehead (18:21.533)
Hmm.
Yeah, totally. mean, you hit the nail on the head with credibility there. It comes back to authenticity. Again, I think it's about making sure that the actions are being firmly embedded within the business so that they can be reported on properly because particularly across Europe, there are still a lot of reporting requirements around ESG. So being able to have credible evidence and then with that being able to target the right stakeholders.
Max Forsyth (18:45.441)
Mmm.
Ed Whitehead (18:52.349)
Council members, both Reputation Council and ESG Council members agree that stakeholders still want to hear what they're doing on ESG topics. So again, it comes back to that targeted communication about progress. So I think that that pragmatic but credible, authentic approach is what we're certainly going to see for the next few years as it continues to become or it remains politicised and challenging.
thing for companies to talk about publicly.
Max Forsyth (19:23.629)
Yeah, and it's interesting. yeah, moving on to another challenge, I couldn't have you on here. It has slightly been talked about to death, but I your report does go into some really interesting stuff in it, so we should cover it. AI. So a majority of communicators who responded use AI daily, yet confidence in meaningful use has fallen sharply. What's behind that gap?
Ed Whitehead (19:38.609)
Yes.
Ed Whitehead (19:51.643)
Yeah, it was really interesting for us to see. I think it was 58 % now of council members say that AI is embedded within their team on a daily basis, but that meaningful use had fallen by about 15 percentage points over the last year. And it may be that as people become more familiar with AI, bar for what constitutes meaningful has got higher. It may be that they're seeing
Max Forsyth (20:18.231)
Yes.
Ed Whitehead (20:19.133)
first hand the limitations of AI in communications, you know, in that it's great for a first draft that actually isn't necessarily going to completely radicalize the comms function potentially. There is a widespread acknowledgement that AI will transform operations, 89 % agree with that, but this comes back to, you know, the communicators being the ones responsible for the reputation of their organization. Only 11 % believe that
Max Forsyth (20:30.893)
Mmm.
Ed Whitehead (20:48.443)
companies, their companies existing ethical policies are sufficient for AI adoption. So I think there is this understanding and awareness among reputation council members that they are the ones who are going to be crucial in terms of drawing up governance plans for use of AI, responsible use of AI within their business, that sort of thing. So I think there is an element of reticence to
Max Forsyth (21:08.908)
Yes.
Ed Whitehead (21:18.289)
dive headlong into AI in the same way that other departments in their organizations may be because they are more aware of the risks and threats that AI poses.
Max Forsyth (21:31.849)
Mm-hmm. And what worries the CCOs most about AI from a reputational point of view?
Ed Whitehead (21:39.749)
Yeah, there are quite a few as you'd expect ranging from deep fakes and misinformation from larger language models. There's the lack of algorithmic transparency from the black box nature of LLMs as well, which means that there's no clarity on how LLMs land on the results. There's the risk of bias, the speed at which falsehoods can spread. And that's, I think part of it comes back to the fact that
just the typical tools in a communicator's box just don't exist with large language models. So one of my favourite quotes from the interviews we carried out for the Reputation Council was a council member saying, talking about incorrect information on an LLM, I can't take AI out for lunch, I can't send it a position statement or an email to correct its thinking. So all of the things that
Typically in media relations, if there was incorrect information, there are tried and tested processes that you can follow in terms of how you can try and correct that. People just don't know how to do that when it comes to large language models. Obviously over the last year, we've seen a massive boom in GEO, so generative engine optimization. know, comms trying to influence what, you know, what informs
Max Forsyth (22:54.189)
interesting.
Ed Whitehead (23:07.291)
the large language models and that's certainly on the radar of council members but again there's a bit of a variety when we were carrying out these interviews around what the best way to do it was. Some of them talked about they've done research in their website, their company website was the source of a lot of information that LLMs were coming out with so they were focusing very much on the newsroom on their own website whereas
Max Forsyth (23:36.226)
Yes.
Ed Whitehead (23:36.495)
others talk about more traditional, know, media being, you know, again, the place to go for influencing what comes into or comes out of GPT and Gemini.
Max Forsyth (23:50.36)
Yeah, no, that's interesting. for all of the council members, I'm quite interested to know for them what separates thoughtful AI integration from a rushed risky adoption when you think how much money a lot of large corporates have and are spending on various AI integrations internally across all sorts of different functions, channels, et cetera.
Ed Whitehead (24:19.281)
Yeah.
Max Forsyth (24:20.183)
be good to know what they're worried about.
Ed Whitehead (24:22.737)
Yeah, I think it comes back to that governance point that there needs to be clarity on responsible use of AI within organizations. And this will likely be something that the comms leaders are having to at least feed into, if not manage. It comes back to that human in the loop piece. The interviews were quite consistent in identifying AI as a precocious intern.
essentially, you know, can be incredibly clever, but you wouldn't send something out without giving it a proper check and review and probably making quite a few changes yourself. there's currently it feels like an awareness of the limitations of AI for the comms function, but also the importance of having the right guardrails in place to make sure that it's responsibly used across the business.
Max Forsyth (25:18.539)
Yes, of course. A nod back to your earlier stat that you highlighted, that 91 % of CCOs report direct access to their CEO. So has and how has that relationship changed in this current environment?
Ed Whitehead (25:35.493)
Yeah, I think we used to talk about relationships with comms in general and leadership improving in a crisis. So if there is a poly crisis or persistent turbulence, there are, by its nature, there are just far more opportunities for comms to show its worth. I think that the remit, as we talked about, of the CCO
Max Forsyth (25:45.805)
Hmm.
Max Forsyth (25:57.463)
Yes.
Ed Whitehead (26:03.408)
has expanded so much now covering things like geopolitical risk, internal culture, navigating regulations, AI guardrails, that the number of interactions and the quality of interactions that comms leaders are having with CEOs is really high now. And I think that trust is being earned through the council that they're able to provide. And a lot of communicators talk to us about
being able to provide candid counsel and pushing back on things and being able to, they are trusted enough and well positioned enough to be able to provide real clarity, push back on things, tell them you don't need to comment on this or we can challenge the perceptions on the board on things that maybe historically we wouldn't have had the confidence to do.
I think that we hear council members talking about their job responsibilities. Can I just take that again? So we hear council members talking about how their job responsibilities have become more difficult to manage over time. Two thirds say that they have, but those complexities are what has opened the door for the CCOs to hold a greater influence in their organization.
Max Forsyth (27:02.061)
Yes.
Max Forsyth (27:11.597)
Yeah, yeah, nervous.
Ed Whitehead (27:31.514)
council members talk about having a better seat at the table, comms becoming more relevant commercially and the opportunity to have a greater influence on strategy. So I think that those are all byproducts of the increasingly challenging environment that they're operating in and when they can earn their stripes and show their value, those opportunities are opening up more and more.
Max Forsyth (27:42.455)
Yes.
Max Forsyth (27:57.902)
Yeah, and are interesting. And what do the strongest DCOs do to earn and keep that level of trust?
Ed Whitehead (28:04.668)
Yeah, I think it comes back to the council, it's not just, you know, it's no longer the finger in the air instinct council, it's data backed. So, you know, how can you show that reputation research is identifying this as a growing issue, being able to anticipate challenges in advance, being able to future proof reputational strategy through data and insight, bringing that sense making to the strategy.
making sure that there is real clarity in the recommendations from a, and this is always a challenge for comms, but in terms of the return on investment and actually being able to show the value more than ever. one of the sections of the report, we asked about return on investment and how communicators are quantifying that. And there is still no uniform perfect solution to this for comms, particularly corporate comms when it's
the cost of not doing something or the benefit of keeping something out of the news or mitigating a potential crisis with a really good response. So it continues to be a very difficult thing to quantify. But things like reputation research give you the opportunity to at least demonstrate how well trusted your organisation is. then at Ipsos we talk about trust and reputation in general as being a
Max Forsyth (29:16.237)
Hmm.
Ed Whitehead (29:33.585)
performance multiplier. you know, strong reputation being an asset that pays dividends in the present and the future, whether, you know, with all sorts of audiences, whether it's with regulators and shaping policy to ensure fewer headwinds or with consumers who are more likely to purchase products and engage with marketing activity if they trust the company or investors and analysts if they trust you, they're less likely to question your strategy, resilient share price.
Max Forsyth (29:55.82)
Yes.
Max Forsyth (30:01.09)
Yes.
Ed Whitehead (30:01.882)
business partners, a trusting relationship there makes joint ventures or collaboration easier. Employees, obviously we've got loads of insights about how trust in your leadership drives engagement, which then improves performance in the workplace. Obviously trust from the media, how communications cut through better. If you're trusted by the media, more likely to be approached for comment.
Max Forsyth (30:27.063)
Yes.
Ed Whitehead (30:30.576)
communication, collaboration, execution, innovation, strategy, engagement, all of these relationships improve with trust and a good reputation. So at least with reputation research and those insights, that's one way that communicators can start to show their value in a better way and demonstrate the impact that their work is having.
Max Forsyth (30:51.681)
Yeah, no, really interesting. And how should they and how should those comms leaders make sure they're using that access to help shape strategy and not just be seen as kind of the company's mouthpiece and not just a messaging outlet?
Ed Whitehead (31:08.538)
Yeah, totally. think, you we talked about it a few times already, Max, it comes back to that authenticity and being the person around the table who brings that outside in perspective, but also can therefore be that critical voice. So actually challenging how authentic a company's position is perceived to be in a certain area, helping them strengthen those areas of
weakness or really fortify strengths which can be real reputational assets going forward. So I think it is that thoughtful challenge, that counsel, but also the understanding of what the external perspective is, bringing that to around a table where a lot of people are focused on the internal. The comms leader often is, you know, you'll have CEOs or chairman who are talking to investors, but the
that's not necessarily happening as regularly as the comms leader is talking to media or looking at social listening tools or reputation research and these kind of things. So think that external perspective is really important.
Max Forsyth (32:21.325)
No, interesting. Yeah, thank you for that. And, and finally, here comes the elevator pitch. If you had to distill the report into one message for a CCO preparing for the next five years, what would it be?
Ed Whitehead (32:37.198)
one message is tough. suppose it would be blend boldness with pragmatism. understand where the authenticity lies, what is the pertinent area or what are the pertinent areas that you can really build your reputational capital around, but equally be pragmatic to
to ensure that you are not trying to achieve everything and shout about everything to everybody. It's being super targeted with what you're doing. I think that those are going to be the key approaches that we're going to see more and more from with communicators. It's fortifying the home front, making sure that these ESG related points are properly embedded in the organization. People are talking about
not just strategic silence now, but strategic patience and whether that is keeping your head down for a few years until the political pendulum might swing back the other way. But it's making sure that when the opportunity and everything cyclical, right? So there will be a time again where ESG communications or whatever we're calling it then will become in vogue again. People want to hear what organizations are doing. But if you haven't embedded those practices,
Max Forsyth (33:41.005)
Hmm.
Ed Whitehead (34:05.88)
authentically within the business then when that time comes you're not going to be able to talk about them with any degree of credibility.
Max Forsyth (34:14.177)
Yeah, no superstatement and a perfect note to finish on. So, Ed Whitehead, thank you very much for coming on Strategy, Story and Stakeholders.
Ed Whitehead (34:24.294)
Thank you for having me Max.
Max Forsyth (34:25.965)
It's been a pleasure. Finally, yeah, kind of where can people find the report? Where can they connect with you, etc.
Ed Whitehead (34:34.532)
Yep, so the report is available on the Ipsos website. It's the Reputation Council report. The website is ipsos.com. I am an advisory director in the corporate reputation practice in the UK. So if you would be interested in any stakeholder research or understanding more about what we do, please feel free to get in touch. I'm on edward.whitehead at ipsos.com or you can find me on LinkedIn.
Max Forsyth (35:02.442)
Super. And I will chuck a link through to the report as well in the show notes so everyone listening can find it there too. So yeah, super. Cheers Ed, thank you very much. Always a pleasure.
Ed Whitehead (35:14.3)
Brilliant, thanks Max.
