Episode Transcript
Introduction
Hello and welcome to Strategy, Story and Stakeholders. It's the podcast for senior leaders in comms, corporate affairs and also investor relations. We're exploring how best to support CEOs and boards to build credibility and how to engage with stakeholders. So that's everyone from employees and customers to investors and governments. At a time when trust in leaders is low, the power of clear storytelling has never been more important.
I'm Max Forsyth, founder of Comms Search and Selection and I've got a decade of experience recruiting comms and IR leaders. I was really excited to speak to my guest for this first episode of Strategy, Story and Stakeholders. Charlotte Otter led executive communications and internal comms for SAP, a global tech giant with 130,000 employees. She's also the author of We Need New Leaders. In our conversation, we cover the challenges and opportunities supporting the C-suite, why courage and self-awareness are essential for leaders today and how inclusive communication builds trust from the inside out.-----
Max: So, Charlotte Otter, welcome to Strategy, Story and Stakeholders. Your career spans journalism, comms leadership and now authorship as the author of We Need New Leaders. What's the thread that runs through it?
Charlotte: I think the thread that runs through it for me, Max, is words and writing. I was obsessed with books as a child and avid readers as a child and then became fascinated with writing and I studied English literature at university, knew for sure I didn't want to
Max: Great. And then, yeah, you found yourself in corporate life and, you know, what's your way up the ladder? Finally, culminating in being the global head of executive communications for SAP. So, yeah, really, what did that look like day to day?
Charlotte: Yeah, so I moved into that role having worked as an executive communicator myself for several leaders. And when the head of exec comms was promoted, I stepped into his role.
And for a long time, if you're asking about my day to day, I combined doing exec comms for a leader with leading the team. So, I was always in the work as well as managing the work, which was quite challenging because executive comms is challenging from a time and intensity point of view.
And then a couple of years into that, SAP also folded employee comms under my remit. So, I went from having a team of 10 or 12 to having a team of 50. And at that point, I stopped doing the individual executive comms for one of the board members and kind of became a full time manager.
And day to day, that was one to ones with my team, crisis management, this thing is happening on this continent, what should my executive be saying, checking in on speeches and keynotes.
And then one thing I did that I was really, proud of is I became highly aware that comms needed to become more data driven. And with somebody in my team, we actually built dashboards based on the HANA Enterprise cloud, which is one of SAP's products, where we could match communications activities to business strategy. And that was an achievement that I was particularly proud of.
Max: Yeah. And do you have a couple of examples of those stats and metrics that you used to do
Charlotte: No, because it was quite a long time ago, Max. But what we did was we broke down the SAP strategy into its different sections. And then we mapped whatever activities executives were doing, whether internal or external, to the different pillars of the strategy.
So we were able to say, this executive spent 70% of their time talking about innovation, this executive spent 40% of their time communicating around sustainability. So we were able to kind of break it down into concrete blocks, how people were spending their time.
Max: Got it. Super. And what were the biggest challenges you faced representing the C-suite?
Charlotte: It was a combination of executives wanting to communicate too much, and executives not wanting to communicate enough. So it was always this friction between bashing down their doors and saying, we really need to do something about this, or reining in the people who were enthusiastic.
Because if you have, say you have a leadership team of 10 or 12, if you only have three people speaking the whole time, then you hear those voices too much. So it was important for us to kind of balance out the voices. So we had to kind of rein in the enthusiasts, but also persuade the less enthusiastic, or also enable them and give them the confidence to step up and speak.
And one of my challenges with executive comms is that I didn't have a big enough team. So the reputation of the team grew to the extent that leaders underneath the C-suite, and there were a couple of hundred of those at SAP, were knocking on my door all the time saying, hey, we need executive comms. So on the one level that made me very proud, this is, you know, the reputation of my team is excellent.
Max: Yes. But also it was difficult to say no. A great problem to have. In fact, a great challenge to have saying no. How did you successfully manage those expectations and put in place an order or a cadence that found the right balance?
Charlotte: Yeah. So one of the things I did was I tried to help them identify somebody in their team who could maybe step up and do executive comms for part of the time. And I made sure that that person had access to our team, so they were able to come to our team meetings, you know, I mentored and helped that person. So we kind of built our talent within the executive's own teams.
Another thing we were doing around about the time I was leaving was we were building out a content library so that any executive across the company could have access to SAP's latest thinking on any topic. And given that SAP has hundreds of thousands of customers, 130,000 employees, there were a lot of topics.
So there was quite a lot of work in maintaining and keeping the content library up and running, but it gave executives at least who my team was not able to cover, gave them the ability to tap into some of the thinking that they needed and the talking points.
Max: Super. And speaking of leaders, it's quite a nice segue into our next section. In your book, We Need New Leaders, you call for new leadership qualities. What's most urgent now?
Charlotte: Yeah, so one of the things I talk about is that we're in a crisis of leaders, which is causing a crisis for leaders. And the crisis for leaders is that, and just for example, you know, what's happened in the US with the shift in politics means that for a lot of companies, diversity, equity, inclusion programs are being deprioritized or even removed completely.
So businesses have to make leaders, CEOs have to make a call. Is that something that matches our values? Are we going to hold on to that? Or is it something we can also gently let go?
So one of the things that's really, really important for leaders now is being able to explain context, explain why things are being done.
Another quality that came up in my research for the book that's incredibly important and is very typical of emerging and established leaders from diverse backgrounds and identities is they have incredible self-knowledge. And I think in such a complex crisis-driven world that we live in, leaders who are able to provide the context that's needed in an empathetic way are leaders who have deep self-knowledge.
Max: Yes. And with a nod to the current geopolitical situation, if you like, there, and yes, certainly from a legal perspective as well in the US around the DE&I programs and what that means for companies and therefore, has there been a row back or a drawback on the comms there?
Are there still ways you see of companies being able to be authentic and to still drive some of those diversity initiatives in a different way, perhaps without the label and therefore, some of the legal implications that also come with that?
Charlotte: Yeah, for sure. And I think the label might have been part of the problem. I think that that labeling and that setting up of DEI as a siloed organization on its own, on one hand made it much easier to chop, much easier to get away because you can identify it, but it also made it a target. But it also then meant that it failed to be thread through the entire organization.
So one way for companies that still value diversity and inclusion to make sure that it's part of their culture is to operate inclusively. You can still hire, remunerate, promote, reward individuals equitably.
And you can also even just down on an individual manager level, you can ensure that you run inclusive meetings so that people in your team who may be different or feel part of the team that you're running.
Max: Yes, really good and important point. And I just follow that up and say, actually, a truly diverse and inclusive organization that includes everybody's voices and allows everyone to shine, really shouldn't necessarily need a DEI label because the being inclusive should be ingrained and part of your culture and part of your natural communication style if you have it.
Charlotte: Yeah, absolutely. And if I may say something to that. So one of the folks I interviewed for the book is Porter Braswell. And Porter is an African American man in the US who has founded several companies with inclusivity as a theme, including most recently an AI company.
And he says much the same, that you can thread it into your culture, you can embody the values, and you can make sure that everybody in the organization shines, you just have to do it consciously, you have to be aware that you're doing it. Because if you forget to be conscious about it, that's when things can slide.
Max: Sure. And on that, what's the biggest blind spot you've seen in a senior leaders communications?
Charlotte: I really do think it goes to self awareness. Because when leaders don't have that self knowledge, or that self awareness, two things happen when they fail to see their role when things are going wrong.
So there's something that came up in my thesis research, which is this idea of single loop and double loop leaders. So single loop leaders see a problem, throw resources, fix the problem, double loop leaders see the problem and fix the problem and then ask what was it in my behavior that caused this problem and what can I do in future to make sure that it doesn't happen again.
So that self knowledge and self awareness that allows leaders to ask those questions empowers their team to give feedback, which then sets up a cycle of psychological safety and trust in a team or in an organization. So I do think that having that self knowledge and self awareness is incredibly important.
Also, leaders who don't have it get a little bit codependent around their comms team. So they go, what's the story I should be telling? What are my messages here? No, that briefing book is too short. I need another 30 pages detailing all the things that I need to know.
So that lack of awareness of our self becomes reflected in the lack of awareness of the storytelling and the messaging that needs to be shared with audiences. And then it sets up this really uncomfortable cycle of codependency with the comms team.
Max: If you're enjoying the conversation, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe to Strategy, Story and Stakeholders on Apple, Spotify and wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps others discover the story. What's an example of messaging that shifted perceptions or outcomes?
Charlotte: Yeah, so I'm becoming more and more uncomfortable with the idea of messaging, probably because we're seeing that you can put a speech, you know, into chat GPT and it spits out hundreds of slick messages. So I think the world of messaging has shifted.
And I would say that it's important for leaders to focus much more on telling stories. I think that messages, we almost already are suspicious of them because it feels like something an artificial intelligence can produce. Whereas stories are still very human, stories still connect us.
But having said that, there was something SAP did, maybe 15 years ago, they developed a program called Autism at Work. And what they recognized was that people with autism had a particular facility for working in tech because of, and maybe this sounds stereotypical to our ears now, but 15 years ago it sounded quite revolutionary because of having a facility with details.
So SAP set up this program, identified people with autism in communities and were able to bring them into really good jobs, which was something that wasn't happening at the time. And it was a program that got a lot of media attention.
Parents of young people with autism were absolutely thrilled that their children had well-paying jobs and people had the kind of job satisfaction that comes from being employed in a job that really uses your talents. I think the storytelling around that worked so well because it addressed a problem and it was mission driven. And I often think the best stories speak to purpose or mission driven.
Max: Get it. Super. And clearly that's a great example of a story that landed with quite a broad stakeholder group. What about, what makes a story really land with senior stakeholders?
Charlotte: It's once again about mission. It speaks to their problems. So if you want to tell a story to customers, you need to have empathy for the problem that they're solving. If you want to be telling a story to consultants who are going out to implement your software, you need to be able to tell stories that reflect the problems that they're suffering.
So there's a lot of talk at the moment about we're moving away from empathy and leadership, but I can't act that. You can't address your stakeholders or your audiences without empathy for what they're going through on a day to day basis.
Max: Yes, I would completely agree. I think, we only have to look at LinkedIn or look at press releases or look online and how much content and stuff is so product focused and not nearly enough spelling out the solution to their problem, right?
Charlotte: Yeah. Yeah, no, I totally agree and totally get that.
Max: Who's hardest to engage and why?
Charlotte: Well, coming out of a tech company, I would probably say developers. The engineers aren't interested in stories or messages from the bosses. They just want to get on with their coding. They're only interested in their manager.
I realized that when one of my best friends was a developer when I worked at SAP and I said, Oh, did you see that mail that the boss sent out? You know, I wrote that. And she said to me, I never read the boss's mails. So I think there's certain sections of employees who are quite hard to engage.
And I think looking externally, I think it's getting harder and harder for comms folks to really find the stories that land with the media. I think there's just so much noise. And I think there's a bit of a disconnect between what executives or leaders think our stories and what PR folks know our stories and what journalists would like to have as stories. And I think that's an ongoing challenge for comms folks who work in PR.
Max: Yeah. And have you managed to think of or come up with any good solutions to engaging some of those tricky stakeholder groups?
Charlotte: I mean, with developers, what we did at SAP was try to appeal to the kinds of things they like to do. So hackathons, getting them involved in things outside their immediate team.
Max: Nice.
Charlotte: With the media, you know, it's really about understanding what their agendas are, what's happening in the world, and trying to attach what the company is working on to what's happening outside. It's often difficult to do because, you know, the press aren't necessarily interested in the latest release of your technology. But if you can show that the latest release of your technology is addressing AI ethics or something that's extremely relevant or top of mind, then I think you're more likely to land stories.
Max: Got it. How do you balance internal versus external audience needs?
Charlotte: I think what's important now is to treat them as one. You know, now with social media, there's almost no such thing as internal or external anymore. The boundaries have completely eroded. And, you know, some of the executives I have worked with in the past or work with now treat LinkedIn as an internal communications tool.
So I think what that means is executives need to be incredibly consistent. They've got to be saying the same things internally and externally, and they have to make really, really sure that the narratives they tell, internal and external, match their behaviors. Because when you get that gap between story and behavior, that's when you get the failure of trust, and that's where reputation is threatened.
Max: Yeah, no, certainly. And you're absolutely right in the spot on there. And in fact, if you look at any executive communications, job advert or job description now, nearly every single one will have a pretty even split between internal engagement and external engagement, and obviously with the different channels and routes that come with that.
So, yes, you're right, it is definitely been noticed and wanted that if you're in executive communications, you need to be able to do both and almost act as that broad corporate communications comms resource, and not just either an internal specialist or an external specialist.
Charlotte: I love that you say that, because I felt that very much in my role running exec comms and employee comms, I always felt that exec comms went wide, employee comms went deep, and the two were extremely complementary. And with exec comms, we covered analyst relations, media relations, keynotes, social media, and internal comms. So it was the gamut of corporate communications.
Max: Yes. And it'd be interesting to see, for a lot of careers as well, how that moves forward. If you look at a lot of people who currently work in executive communications, a lot of their background they may have moved over from internal communications rather than external. That tends to be certainly currently the more common career path into it, but I do think that will start to change and that will start to shift as that real requirement to be able to do both becomes even more urgent and more apparent.
Charlotte: Yeah, for sure. And it won't be about LinkedIn anymore, it's going to be about TikTok. People who have a facility with TikTok.
Max: Yeah, TikTok, and I think podcasting as well. And even if someone doesn't listen to the whole thing, if you look at Instagram and TikTok, how many of those are 30, 45, 60 second clips from a podcast? They go viral very easily and they're really nice clipable bits of content.
Charlotte: Yeah, they certainly are, Max. And also, the lovely thing about podcasts is that they're evergreen. AI picks them up. Somebody might find a podcast that was produced 18 months ago and then listen to the whole backlist. They're a very, very strong form of content, for sure.
Max: Hmm. What change in comms do new leaders underestimate as they move up into that leadership position?
Charlotte: I think how much time they need to spend thinking about planning and doing their communication. So there's so much pressure as leaders move up, particularly into the C-suite, suddenly they're beset with an incredible amount of decisions that they have to make all the time, but also an incredible amount of thoughtfulness is needed around how much time they prepare to spend communicating.
And if they don't give their communicators time and space, it will only be harder for them, for them, the leaders, it will also be harder for the communicators. But that time and space so the communicators can learn their voice, understand their priorities, know what their narratives are is very, very important.
Max: Super. What's the first comms principle you'd give to a new CEO?
Charlotte: Be yourself. Don't pretend. Leadership is not a persona. It's not a mask. Show up as who you are. A little bit messy, a little bit human. You're much more likely to attract followers and much more likely that people will want to follow you on the mission that you're on.
Max: And leading on from that, one skill or mindset comms leaders should invest in now?
Charlotte: It's not a skill or a mindset, but it's a value or a behavior, and that's courage. I think now more than ever, comms leaders need to have the courage to knock on the door and say to the CEO or a member of the C-suite, this isn't working. I'm going to tell you why we need to fix this.
Max: Super bit of advice. And actually, I agree. I think there are so many brilliant comms people I know who are fantastic at doing that when it comes to comms for their company or putting their foot down with a journalist or whoever. But when it comes to that internal stakeholder piece, not quite so good at it. Yeah, super bit of advice there.
And just to finish, Charlotte, what would you like to say to all the current CEO and leaders out there who don't currently invest in executive comms? Why should they?
Charlotte: Reputation is highly valuable and extremely easy to lose. Just take one look at the astronomer CEO. We need not say any more. It can be lost in an instant. So make sure you give your communicators time and listen to them.
Max: Super. Charlotte, thank you very much. Where can listeners connect with you and find your book?
Charlotte: Oh, Max, thank you so much. Yeah. So I'm on LinkedIn and I'm always happy to connect with folks. My website ischarlotteotter.com. There they will find links to where they can buy the book, links to my podcast, Speech Bubbles and links to my sub stack where I have many opinions.
Max: Super. And I'll be sure to include all of those links as well in the show notes so all the listeners can firstly connect with you on LinkedIn, but also check out your website, your sub stack and buy a copy of your book. We Need New Leaders is the title for anyone that didn't catch it at the start. It's a fantastic read and well worth the investment if you are thinking about leadership positions yourself and how you can use comms to help you move into that role and gain traction with all of your stakeholders and really nail your storytelling, which as we've discussed is absolutely key now to growing your following and engagement and really driving through the change that you want to implement.
So Charlotte Otter, thank you for coming on Strategy, Story and Stakeholders.
Charlotte: Thanks for having me, Max. It's been great.
Max: It's a pleasure. Take care. That was my conversation with Charlotte Otter, formerly head of executive and internal comms at SAP and now author of We Need New Leaders. If you enjoyed it, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe to Strategy, Story and Stakeholders on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Thanks for listening to Strategy, Story and Stakeholders, the podcast for senior leaders in comms, corporate affairs and investor relations. I'm Max Forsyth. Join us again soon for more conversations about storytelling, trust and leadership.
