Episode Transcript
Max Forsyth (00:01)
So Rebecca Matts, welcome to Strategy, Story and Stakeholders.
Rebecca (00:05)
Thanks Max, it's great to be here.
Max Forsyth (00:07)
Pleasure. Let's get straight into it. So how did you get into corporate affairs? And what brought you to the level you sit at today?
Rebecca (00:09)
Okay.
Well, I started in marketing. I started on the other side, on the dark side and did a masters in marketing first as part of my first role. And then I started looking to the comms side and looking at that counsel and advisory side and feeling a bit of envy really as to what was happening, what was going on.
Max Forsyth (00:34)
Yeah.
Rebecca (00:36)
And I had really enjoyed journalism and political science at university. And so I edged over to the other side and I was taken on as the communications advisor/chief of staff to the head of a global professional services firm. And that started my journey.
Max Forsyth (00:53)
Speaking of leadership and we'll go straight into the section on leadership and influence. How do you typically engage with your C-suite to ensure comms and corporate affairs strategies are aligned with the overall business objectives?
Rebecca (01:02)
Okay.
So I don't just focus on the C-suite actually. Really map your stakeholders. I think internally you would map them externally and who you're trying to speak to and influence and understand the business priorities is clear and having a plan. I think the other thing that's really easy to assume is that all leadership, we use the term, the CEO and not all CEOs are the same, not all heads of HR are the same. We're all humans and individuals and we've all got our quirks and our ways that we like to work. And are the things that we're really passionate about in the expression of, know, the company objectives or story or the performance. The context is everything, whether you're operating in a good time and a growth time, or whether you're operating in a really constrained time or a period of crisis.
Rebecca (02:06)
So you've got to really figure out the human as well as overlaying the smart corporate affairs and the comms planning approach on top of that so that you can engage them as effectively as possible. So that's generally trying to appeal, I guess, to the head and the heart with everything.
Max Forsyth (02:23)
Yes, and just with that in mind and thinking about getting that balance between, as you say, what situation does the business find itself in? Plus, what personality, what leadership style are you dealing with when, , when you're advising? Do you have an example of a time, where you really successfully used your skills and your acumen to be able to influence that critical comms decision and what was your approach?
Rebecca (02:58)
Hmm. There's one, there's a lot that we can't talk about, obviously, corporate affairs. There's one that dates back quite some time and that was a really tough period. It was in a big bank and it would, it had been a co-CEO set up. And then ultimately that dissolved and it was a single CEO and it was an internal thing and it was post financial crisis. And it was the first town hall. And this was the beginning as well. This was over a decade ago.
where the dividing lines between internal and external were starting to disappear. So you knew that whatever you said internally was gonna be external within a few minutes, if not a few hours. And then you also had a huge engagement job to do internally. And it's one of those that's quite funny in retrospect because it was about compensation and it was bankers and they hate to hear anything negative. So the message that was about to be given
Max Forsyth (03:38)
Yes.
Yes.
Rebecca (03:56)
was not going to be one that people were going to enjoy receiving, but it needed to be delivered and it needed to be delivered in a really clear way with that understanding that it was not a message that anybody wanted to receive. And I think it was one of those moments where you get caught between your experience, the gut feel and a whole host of advisors that are around you.
that are giving different advice. And it was a time where it was like, it was so contentious. was, , the broader messaging. They knew it was going to be received badly. And he'd been given some advice from external advisors, which was to soft soak it and to be a little bit, to pedal back and to go in gently because it was the first opportunity to engage with the broader staff population. And I gave him the opposite advice and said, you've got one shot.
Max Forsyth (04:36)
Mmm.
Rebecca (04:48)
This is your time to really gain the trust of people. They're super, they're super smart, highly educated group, go in, be clear. Nobody wants to hear it, but they will thank you for being honest with them and for delivering it clearly and sort of succinctly and not dragging it out. And he did take that advice. And then universally, you got really great feedback for saying,
Max Forsyth (04:49)
Mmm.
Yes.
Yes.
Rebecca (05:17)
Of course, we hated the message, but we were really grateful that you trusted us with that message, and in turn that we trusted you.
Max Forsyth (05:21)
Hmm.
Yes, honesty is such an important characteristic. I think now of any really good comms or corporate affairs advice, the whole idea of The Thick of it spin doctor style of 20 years ago, 25 years ago, you can't do it now. People see straight through it, don't they?
Rebecca (05:39)
Yeah.
No, they absolutely do.
Max Forsyth (05:50)
And just building on that point and thinking about the power of story and getting that message across, what makes a compelling corporate story and how do you ensure that it resonates with what is nearly always a pretty diverse range of stakeholders with different views and different opinions?
Rebecca (05:57)
Yeah.
Yeah, the narrative is really important and making sure that that narrative is consistent with other messages as well that are going out from the organization. I think that happens a lot that it gets confused and it gets conflicted, especially if you're in a very big organization. Authenticity is really important from the top, the relatability. And then I think clarity and brevity within that corporate narrative or the core messaging. And then the final point I'd make would be that it requires some unique positioning. I think there's a lot of corporate narratives that you can get, quite clear, quite authentic, but they're a little bit samey. The sort of tried and tested, know, we're the biggest, we're the most global, we're the, whatever it may be the most loved brand. And that's overdone. And there's definitely something that's unique. And I think often those unique points feel small.
Max Forsyth (07:01)
Yes.
Rebecca (07:10)
but they're the ones that really do help to build that authenticity. Cause it says that we recognize the position and we're in and we trust you as our clients and then our customers and our stakeholders, , to recognize that this is why, , you're working with us or buying our products. So that little bit of differentiation with the authenticity is incredibly important, I think.
Max Forsyth (07:16)
Hmm.
Yeah. And do you have a good example of one of those that has really sort of stood out in your career where someone just got that little thing that's just made something really stand out?
Rebecca (07:48)
I think probably the honest answer is that I'm still fighting for it, that it tends to be the default tends to be to the bigger language and you're, you're often trying to really, just bring a little bit more out. yeah, not recently anyway.
Max Forsyth (08:06)
No, although I mean that actually leads really nicely onto our next question. think, yeah, when we talk about language that perhaps can seem quite samey, I think if you took lots of large corporates particularly and you ask them around their purpose and values, both internally and externally, if you look across financial services, a lot of them will all have the same taglines, but...
Rebecca (08:21)
Hmm.
Max Forsyth (08:38)
They are different organizations that do things differently. So yeah, how do you help your organization to effectively communicate purpose and values when, yeah, on the face of it, they could seem the same as a couple of their competitors.
Rebecca (08:52)
Yeah, and it's, it's very true. I think for me it's values first. Purpose flows and you're really clear about your values and, it's okay, depending on the organization that you're in or the sector that you're in, that, that you're, you've got sound values and your utility within your sector. Because you can, you can get to that purpose expression or that purpose narrative. I think. much more clearly when you're clear about your values and where and how you operate in the market that you're in. I think for a number of years, the purpose story, the purpose narrative, as part of that corporate storytelling, and I think as well as from an employer brand, got very, very confused. And that's where it diverted from authenticity and sort of real clarity about what that organization's role was in the world.
Max Forsyth (09:49)
Mm.
Rebecca (09:49)
And not all organizations can have a benevolent, purposeful place. They have utility. They're there to serve a purpose and to meet a need. But they might not be hugely purpose-led in the way that we tried to organize the narrative around before, which is why I like to stick with values. And I think that really comes in with some of the sustainability arguments and the...
Max Forsyth (09:59)
Yes.
Mmm.
Rebecca (10:19)
The diversity in them, the equity kind of arguments, is that if those are core parts of your values as an organization, then you can tell your purpose story a lot more easily than the other way around, is inventing the purpose and then trying to figure out the bits that are connected to it.
Max Forsyth (10:31)
Yes.
Yes. And then off that then are you saying that, those values then are then what you use to then go and really start building and maintaining that trust with your different stakeholder groups? So whether that's your employees or investors or media. And then how would you go about implementing that to then really start to build and,
Rebecca (10:53)
They should be, yeah. They should be those core pillars. Yeah, exactly.
Max Forsyth (11:06)
maintain those trust levels. Is it a cadence thing? is it more of an execution thing? Walk us through that?
Rebecca (11:15)
Yeah, both. So, using it as your pillars in all of your planning and your messaging and, where things come back to. I think it can flow through brand. That's very clear, on the branding side. so that alignment between the corporate affairs and the brand for that expression and that, yeah, you bring it back. I think if everything that you do, some organizations do this really well where they put that as part of performance planning. That's not part of corporate affairs.
Max Forsyth (11:42)
Mm-mm.
Rebecca (11:43)
But if you're really joined up with the breadth of the leadership, then that can be incorporated into performance. It's incorporated into all the messaging. It's incorporated into how you report. It's incorporated in how to, you open or land some of those key messages for the media. There's a way to bring it into every conversation, if you're clear about your values. Or it's sort of intrinsically there within the conversation that you're having. Because you've made it clear that that's the position, that's where you are coming from as an individual and a leader in that organization and where the organization comes from.
Max Forsyth (12:46)
So then building off that plan then to really implement them, how do you then go about tackling perhaps, some of those challenges you then get to it, if I think if we think about the last couple of years, for example, and how, there has started to be some pushback amongst some stakeholder groups and some elements of the media. on some companies' values and the purpose, particularly around the equity and sustainability piece. How do you push back against that? How do you hold the line as an organisation and balance that?
Rebecca (13:19)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think it's an excellent question. And we would always say, think from corporate affairs and a messaging perspective, that your messaging does have to be consistent and you've got to maintain that. And all too often, particularly with your principals and your senior executives, they get bored quickly. They want to move on. They're like, we've told the story, let's go, let's change. And are more likely to be influenced by some of the external factors and that will. On top of that, then that will influence that pace of change. Having said that, like everything in life and corporate affairs is no different, there's the 80-20 rule. Life moves on, the market moves, your sector moves, all the external factors are moving and you've got to adapt to that and be flexible with it. But...
Max Forsyth (14:10)
Mmm.
Mm.
Yes.
Rebecca (14:24)
At the root, if your values are the same, then it's a question of changing that expression. It's not changing who you are and how you operate as an organization. That shouldn't change. You may tell that story in a different way. You may take off emphasis on where you're telling some of those stories. But hopefully,
Max Forsyth (14:45)
Mmm, mmm.
Rebecca (14:50)
And I would like to think that, , I'm part of one of those people that doesn't let it slip off the agenda and it doesn't let it remove it from what you're doing. You're probably just turning the volume down on some of those areas relative to some of the external pressures.
Max Forsyth (15:06)
Yeah. And how do you balance that? Not even just so much from a company perspective, but also from a personal perspective. If you're a corporate affairs leader and maybe personally you have a strong affinity to various values or whatever, but that your job is to provide that counsel to the leadership in the organization and you need to do what's best for the business. Yeah.
Rebecca (15:35)
Okay.
Max Forsyth (15:36)
How do you manage that yourself and are you able to separate that off?
Rebecca (15:47)
That's a deep question, how are you able to separate it off? No, you're not able to separate it off. I think I'll probably go back to the expression I used earlier. Again, it's a question of volume control. It doesn't disappear, but there will be points, relative to the agenda, relative to the objective of the organization, relative to the geopolitical regulatory headwinds that you've got.
Max Forsyth (15:50)
It is.
Mmm.
Yes.
Rebecca (16:16)
that you've got to dial up and dial down certain things. And that goes with you too. And we talked about values earlier. I think holding firm on your own personal values and knowing what they are is incredibly important. And if you get to a point within an organization where those values are not aligned, then you do have a choice to make, especially as a more senior person and as a spokesperson. If you don't believe,
Max Forsyth (16:28)
Yes.
Rebecca (16:45)
and don't feel that you can credibly, authentically, tell the story of that organization, then that's a personal decision rather than a corporate affairs leadership decision to make.
Max Forsyth (16:45)
Yes.
No, but actually that's a really important point you make there around, , yeah, , whilst you are paid and your job is there for the organization, also, yeah, you need to do yourself justice, but you also need to be able to do your organization justice, right? Because ultimately, they're paying you. And I think if you're, yeah, , you're right. If you're not, , if you don't truly believe in it, are you, are you really the best, person to be doing that?
Rebecca (17:09)
Hmm.
Max Forsyth (17:26)
role and I think that can take talk about leadership but taking ownership that can take a lot to be to have that self-reflection and and call it because I know there are a lot of your peers who may feel differently about things so and don't necessarily have the conviction of character right yeah
Rebecca (17:34)
Mmm.
Yeah, we've seen a few examples in the market
of where people have been quite clear, now, they've taken on very big roles and it hasn't for various reasons. They've been very diplomatic about it, but they've been clear that actually it's not in alignment there and that they can't, they can't fulfill their duties.
Max Forsyth (18:00)
Mmm.
Yeah, hey, yeah, but I think it's having that sense of conviction takes, takes a lot. And yeah, my own view is, yeah, you can only sort of sit back and applaud because I think that can be, yeah, that can be a lot to walk away from, right? So yeah, no, great. And just off that, and you mentioned the geopolitical situation and how that's, changed some of the
Rebecca (18:13)
Yeah.
Max Forsyth (18:35)
some of the phrasing and the wording around things like values and purpose. But yeah, what trends do you anticipate will have the biggest impact on corporate comms and affairs over the coming years?
Rebecca (18:39)
Mm.
Yeah, I mean, we've really shifted from this hugely global outlook, very international way of working to a much more polarized society, politics are much more polarized, you've got to take that into account. And I think there are elements of that that lend itself to much more regionalization, and sort of personalization within markets, which is a good thing. So adapting to political headwinds, the geopolitical overlay, and where your organization sits within that and being really mindful about it is important. So that's not going to disappear and be clever with it as well. There's an opportunity to be clever with it too. Again, without going against your values or your main thrust of the storytelling. And then without question, AI. think , corporate affairs, I'm hopeful, like I'm really hopeful for corporate affairs in this way. And I think we've got a real role to play because collaboration is going to be more important than ever, especially in the places that we sit between marketing and IR, in a publicly listed company. If we are not working together as colleagues and within the organization, AI is going to start telling the story of your company for you. And so we've.
Max Forsyth (19:48)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
Rebecca (20:12)
We've got a real role as corporate affairs leaders to bring that humanity, to bring that authenticity, that clarity, that really compelling story, and then enable that to sort of filter through so when, and then that sort of spat back to you as if it were from AI. The other thing I think is being a rational voice. I'm a huge advocate of technology. I've always been even within the corporate affairs space.
Max Forsyth (20:18)
Mmm. Mmm.
Yeah.
Yes.
Rebecca (20:41)
I love the tech stack, but it's going to proliferate. We're to have so many tools and so many agents and it's going to explode and then it's going to come back. It's going to sort of, so keep a level head within this conversation within your organization as it gets more and more stressful. I think for a lot of people, it's like, how's it going to impact jobs? Everybody's trying to figure their ways around it. There's no question that we're hugely influenced by very few.
Max Forsyth (21:03)
Yes.
Rebecca (21:10)
people and companies from a tech perspective in this. There's the geopolitical that overlays it because there are state actors involved in some of it. Now, keeping a level head, knowing, embracing it as the tool that it is, and then really using the power of corporate affairs and the humanity around that engagement and that storytelling is going to be a critical, a critical part of our roles, an exciting part too.
Max Forsyth (21:12)
Very true, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. yeah, no, get it. I yeah. And I think for me, why I look at this externally, from a recruitment perspective, I even think, hey, actually, what an opportunity people have in incomes and corporate affairs who, who, have that emotional intelligence and that ability to be able to really implement that authenticity.
Rebecca (21:59)
Thank you.
Max Forsyth (22:06)
give your organization a voice that is doesn't need to be really different, but just enough that just makes it really obvious that, hey, you you might be using some AI in the background, but you're able to give that authentic voice and that authentic tone to a lot of others who will just be churning out very samey. Everyone's going to sound the same and it's just going to be a sea of noise.
Rebecca (22:14)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Max Forsyth (22:34)
Everybody only has to look at their own social media feeds. Can I have a look at your inbox? , everyone is just bombarded constantly by just an insane volume of media and content to consume, right? So I think if you can really cut through that, it's a great opportunity.
Rebecca (22:40)
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think being, back, with the stakeholder engagement and really assessing that, , we are going to have to deal with different stakeholders in different ways, for productivity reasons and other reasons and, know, the way that they want to receive content. And there will be different levels of sophistication and sort of the human white glove service, , down to the AI agents, depending on what it is and how you're interacting with an organization. really thinking through that life cycle again.
Max Forsyth (23:11)
Mmm.
Rebecca (23:20)
which isn't typically corporate affairs, that tends to be more marketing, but the more, again, we come together with the other teams that are engaging with the bulk of stakeholders from an organization, and the better that we collaborate, then I think, then the better positions you're gonna be.
Max Forsyth (23:40)
yeah, no, completely. And then even on the flip side of that coin, if you look at it from a slightly cynical perspective, and already, actually, there have been a couple of employment tribunals in the UK. There's a class action lawsuit in the US around some of these HR tools, recruitment tools, job applicants, and assessment tools that have AI behind them. And effectively, the test is, well,
Rebecca (23:57)
and
Max Forsyth (24:07)
What about its bias? How does it know what it's looking for? What's good? have I been unfairly expelled from a recruitment process because an AI bot has made that decision? There are so many of those things that haven't really truly been tested yet. Even from a legal perspective, then you put your corporate affairs hat on and go, well, actually, we need to be a bit careful here, right? Because if we don't manage this correctly,
Rebecca (24:10)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, reputation,
Max Forsyth (24:35)
We're in a sticky reputation. Yeah, yeah, exactly right.
Rebecca (24:35)
reputation reputational risk like any other reputational risk.
Max Forsyth (24:39)
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot to it. No, great. Finally, what advice would you offer to emerging comms and corporate affairs leaders who, , are looking to follow in your footsteps and, , start to climb up the ranks?
Rebecca (24:56)
Yeah, I guess I've always thought about my career as a bit of a toolbox, right? So, my education, my upbringing was the box. And then as I've gone through my career, I've acquired all the different tools, , to be hopefully considered a very well-rounded, corporate affairs leader. So, make sure you've got, media clearly, that you've got the media tool. That you've done quite a bit on internal engagement, that's more important. know, that digital and the analytics and the understanding, really focusing on what's the rules-based stuff within corporate affairs, because that goes into AI and what's not the rules. What is that, human understanding? Public affairs, geopolitical, it's sometimes that's hard if you're in a very, domestic role or you're in a, you were in a single market.
Max Forsyth (25:38)
Mmm.
Rebecca (25:53)
It sort of doesn't, you think it doesn't matter, but it does. and that's, be some of your own reading and your own understanding or listening. That's podcasts. I think I did mention employee engagement, but that's an increasing part and the, the data and the analytics that go around, engagement employee engagement, really understanding those and, and, and holding people to account on action plans, the data and the analytics that go around media.
Max Forsyth (26:19)
Hmm.
Rebecca (26:20)
I know so many amazing media people who don't care about the analytics. It's going to become more important in this data-driven AI world. So getting the art and science right around some of how we use these tools and then how we use the data, the statistics, the analytics to further inform our strategy and to help us.
Max Forsyth (26:29)
Yes.
Rebecca (26:43)
know, reporting better to executive teams and to boards is going to be key to your success. So try and get on some of those projects or where somebody is trying to build something within your team, know, shadow, make sure you understand what's going on because it will be a critical skill.
Max Forsyth (26:47)
Yes.
Yes. And in the meantime, wouldn't it be lovely if every comms and corporate affairs team had a data analyst or a data scientist in it to help them break some of that stuff down. Sadly, it isn't really a thing, but it would be great, wouldn't it?
Rebecca (27:12)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, I think there's plenty of people who've got some of that skill and that they can incorporate it as part of their role. So not a true data scientist in the way that we would think of it, , in a sort of a singular role, but there are certainly aspects that you can bring to bear. And if you've got that aptitude and that desire, yeah, it's highly valued and highly prized in a team.
Max Forsyth (27:20)
Yeah.
Yeah, and fingers crossed some of those, yeah, kind of real people can really emerge from the woodwork and just start to shout about all that really good stuff they do. Because you're right, actually, there are people that do do it, but it doesn't normally come out unless you really ask them about it. So.
Rebecca (27:55)
Yeah, and, I think the hygiene factor, the, the table stakes so that you're a good writer, there's a lot of emphasis that's put on writing, but, if you don't enjoy writing, you don't enjoy wordplay, don't, you're in the wrong career. And that actually, being a super writer or, a clear and, a very clear directive sort of writer, is what you're there for. So it's all the other things that you can bring to bear.
Max Forsyth (28:12)
Yay.
Mmm.
Rebecca (28:25)
within the team and within your organization, know, and then roughly relative to where.
Max Forsyth (28:29)
Love it.
Super, thank you. Yeah, well, thank you, Rebecca. That's been fantastic. yeah and you have anything you'd like to plug? Where can people find you? Where's the best place to follow you?
Rebecca (28:33)
Yeah. Thank you. I'm not a huge poster. I'm a very corporate affairs in that way. And then I tend to sort of be in the shadows and I watch and I listen, but I'm on LinkedIn if you want to connect. I do love to sort of mentor and connect with people. So, in the real way and in the human way. So I'm very happy always to engage with people and have a coffee and widen my network as much as possible.
Max Forsyth (29:00)
Yeah.
Super. Well on that note we'll say goodbye. But yeah, thank you, that was excellent and yeah, really enjoyed it. So yeah, I will catch you soon. Cheers. Bye.
Rebecca (29:13)
Thank you.
